S3, Ep 2 - Alex Sarian, the Audacity of Relevance: Critical Conversations on the Future of Arts and Culture

00:10 MONIQUE BLOUGH, HOST:

Welcome to Responsible Disruption, where we explore bold ideas, challenge assumptions, and rethink what's possible. Today, we're joined by Alex Sarian, a thought leader in the arts and culture space and the President and CEO of Arts Commons, one of Canada's largest multidisciplinary art centers. Alex has dedicated his career to rethinking the role of cultural institutions in society, championing their civic purpose, advocating for their social impact, and challenging traditional methods of success. Before leading Arts Commons, Alex held senior leadership roles at Lincoln Center in New York, where he worked to expand access to the arts and foster cultural innovation.

Now, in his new book, The Audacity of Relevance, Alex makes a bold argument: for arts organizations to survive and thrive, they must move beyond ticket sales and prestige, and instead redefine success by their impact on communities. He explores how institutions can balance artistic integrity with evolving audience needs, leverage human-centered innovation, and prepare for a future shaped by technological and societal change.

So, how do we ensure the arts remain relevant, vital, and deeply connected to the world around us? In our conversation, we're going to explore the crisis of relevance, how we move into solutions, and end with the future and action steps. So, let's dive in. Alex, welcome, and thanks for joining us today.  

01:48 ALEX SARIAN, GUEST:

Monique, thank you so much. That was one of the kindest introductions I have ever received, and so I'm very grateful to you. Thank you so much for having me on.

01:57 MONIQUE: Well, it's a pleasure. So your book The Audacity of Relevance, tackles some of the biggest challenges facing the arts and culture sector today. So I'd love it if you could share with our listeners what inspired you to write it.

02:12 ALEX: So, there were two main reasons to write the book. The first one is I wanted to be able to share a lot of the stories that we were experiencing at Arts Commons during the pandemic. I moved to Calgary in 2020 at a time when everybody's businesses and everybody's lives were being turned upside down. And there were such beautiful stories coming out of the work that we were doing, which was completely unconventional, and work that honestly never would have happened had it not been for this interruption. And so, I wanted to share those stories.

But the second reason, this is a reason perhaps slightly more visible, is because we are building the largest cultural infrastructure project in Canadian history. And it's important to me that, as these— you know, as construction takes shape, as these buildings are being erected—I wanted people to understand that this campus isn’t just a shiny new facility, but it’s the physical manifestation of thinking about things differently. So, in that sense, the book is almost this companion piece or this manifesto that’s meant to go along with this exciting, very visible construction process that we’re currently underway with.

03:26 MONIQUE: I love that, you know, our podcast is called Responsible Disruption and I think COVID was one of those disruptors that created space for all of us to reimagine how we worked, how we connected and how we communicated. And so I love that you were able that experience though, and turn it into something that you wanted to share with others so they could learn from your experiences.

03:54 ALEX: Well, and maybe there's a third reason I wrote the book, because—and your comment is touching on it—not many people did what we did. And, you know, you speak about using this time to disrupt and to rethink. And, you know, I would like to say that we did it out of a place of... We actually did it out of a place of survival and wanting to pivot because we had to. And so, the other reason I wrote the book is because, as we started coming out of the pandemic and as restrictions started easing, it was becoming very clear that there were organizations, there were people, and there were leaders that tried to maintain the status quo and were starting to fail.

So, it was really important to me, as we were reflecting on the pandemic and the work that we were doing, that we were telling those stories. Because, let's be honest, I think our sector has difficulty managing change in general. And so, if this book and if our work becomes inspiration for others in the future to manage change differently, then I think that would be a huge gift.

05:01 MONIQUE: I love that and I don't think you're the only sector that struggles with managing change and wanting to innovate. Often we do innovate out of a place of survival. Because, you know, we can think of many examples of organizations, not that it's in the arts or any of the social sectors, but you know, Blockbuster, blockbuster failed to innovate. And they were at a place of survival. And we all know there's no longer blockbuster in our neighborhoods today, so...

05:34 ALEX: No, and to me, that's why relevance is so important. The topic of relevance is: how are we measuring and articulating our values to others, and how are we defining success as measured by other people? So, you're absolutely right when you mention that this is a crisis of relevance, not just for the arts sector, but for others. I also think it's aligned to this crisis in communication. It's this crisis of empathy. We don't know how to modify what it is that we do to be in service to others. And people say to me, like, "Oh, this is so challenging." My response is, it's actually not. The question that I always ask is: What does the world need that we are uniquely positioned to do? Because that statement, in and of itself, forces us to have to measure up our mission to what the world is calling for. And if we can't even do that in conversation, then we're sure as heck never gonna do it in practice.

06:33 MONIQUE: Well, said. So, when you talk about the crisis of relevance in your book and the fact that, you know, there are declining audiences, shifting philanthropic trends, and societal expectations, I also think there are, you know, these emerging trends that are coming out as... But what do you see as some of the biggest factors driving that crisis, other than some of that communication crisis and empathy? And I'm curious what you see as some of the biggest factors driving this. You mentioned a crisis in communication and a crisis in empathy, but I'm curious if there are any others that we need to be paying attention to.

07:14 ALEX: I mean, listen, at the end of the day, it is getting more complicated to run these businesses. You know, at the end of the day, inflation is real, escalation is real, exchange rate is real, but that applies to everybody. And what is so frustrating to me is that within our sector, instead of spending time understanding and experimenting with ways of navigating a new reality, we just sit back and complain that people aren't coming and people aren't spending money. The reality is—and we know this to be true—philanthropy: people are giving around the world more than ever before. People are attending things, coming out of the pandemic, there’s this hunger for these collective social experiences, and we know that people are spending money. The economic impact of the experience economy is real. The only issue is, we are not on the receiving end of that as the arts community. And so, I think we need to be very careful of painting these absolutes and saying, "Oh, philanthropy is down" or "People aren't leaving their couches." Absolutely. And people are giving more than ever. They're just not giving to... There's this beautiful anecdote in one of the chapters in my book when I interview the woman that runs GivingTuesday, this international philanthropy platform. She says to me in the book, she says, "You all in the arts love to talk about donors. That’s a phrase that we throw around a lot in the arts community—donor fatigue." And she said to me, "Donors are not fatigued of giving; if they're not giving to you, it's probably 'cause they're fatigued of you." And so, we lack the ability to self-reflect on our role in making things complicated.  

08:58 MONIQUE: It's a powerful statement for people to take under consideration and how to really start to dig in to what they might need to evolve and change.

09:07 ALEX: Yeah, and it aligns with this question of what is it that we need to do differently in order to align with people's values? Because it's people's values that are ultimately getting them off their couch and into a concert arena. It's people's values that are getting them to open up their wallets and support causes that they believe in. If they're not doing that with us, it's not because they're not doing it. We just have not been able to articulate our value to them and, I think, an appealing enough invitation to get them inspired into our story. And so, you know, people look at me, you know, around the country and around the US, and they say to me, "How is it possible that in this time of post-pandemic crisis, Arts Commons is raising hundreds of millions of dollars for this project and doing it so successfully and seemingly easily?" And my answer to that question is, we have just presented to people a story that inspires them and that they want to be a part of. It's not rocket science.

10:04 MONIQUE: So Alex, how does how does an organization do that? I mean, we know that the expectations of the public on how their experience in the arts has changed. So how does someone that works in your sector start to think about that?

10:24 ALEX: I think we need to take stock of what we are feeling overly precious about because there are things within our world that we are precious about for very good reason, right? As a nonprofit, we have a responsibility to manage our resources for the better good of the community and society. So, we are overly precious and overly rigorous in terms of our finances. I would never want to let that echo. But we're also, for the most part, in the arts community, overly precious about what we think people should want to consume. And there's good reason for that. Historically, when you look at arts organizations in the history of the 20th century, you would look to places like Arts Commons or the Glenbow Museum or other organizations, and you would put your faith and your trust in them because you yourself lacked the agency to curate your own cultural experiences. That has changed over the past 30-40 years. We now can curate our own cultural experiences in the palm of our hand with our phones and computers and the internet and AI. So, this role of curator that we have been overly precious about for far too long, we need to start loosening our grip on that. And, you know, I argue in the book that there's still a role for the curator, still a role for the programmer, but that is a role that needs to evolve so that we are in greater conversation with people. We need to go from this reality of, "You should come see this show because I programmed it. You should trust me," to a world where we can sit down with certain communities or neighbors and say, "Tell me what matters to you. Tell me how you define cultural identity." Tell me how you celebrate cultural identity, and then let me take that information back to the organization and the resources that make us so good at what we do. Let me present back to you an invitation that honors what you have shared with me, but still has the ability to surprise, still has the ability to delight, still has the ability to challenge. But at least we're doing it in conversation, and we are taking that necessary exercise of curating, but doing it in response to what we're learning from. I think that civic dialogue, that back and forth, is something that the arts community has never really had to entertain before. And I think this moment in time, where we are losing relevance and, as a result, we are losing ticket sales and losing philanthropy and losing, if we're not doing that now, then I don’t know when.  

13:03 MONIQUE: So how are you having these conversations? Because, you know, in your book you emphasize design thinking and human centered. And of course, you know, in our work that is one of our primary drivers and it's what we use for working alongside community. So is that some of the tools that you're using or can you share some of that with our listeners?

13:28 ALEX: Absolutely. I mean, I think it starts from a place of inquiry and curiosity, and it has to. It needs to start from a place of humility. So, for example, for us, we always talk about this idea of "nothing for us without us." And we always ask the question, "Who's not coming, and why?" We have hundreds of thousands of people that come to Arts Commons every year, and I love each and every one of them. I will continue to love them, and I will continue to nurture them, and I will continue to hope that they can come year after year and day after day. But I'm actually slightly more interested in trying to understand who is not coming and why not. So there's that humility coming into play. We have lots of programs that are meant to engage with the community, and I can just give you a couple of examples because, to the naked eye or to the public, they're not necessarily community engagement programs (unquote). But they serve a purpose of engaging with the communities in the neighborhoods that surround us.

For example, I'll give you three. We have a big commitment to arts education. We have thousands, tens of thousands, of teachers and students that come through our doors every year, and we go out into schools all the time. Now, traditionally, the education department of an arts organization has historically been a one-way street under the guise of marketing, and it's always been about, "Oh, we're just going to put more butts in seats," but these are going to be 7-year-olds or 10-year-olds or, you know, 15-year-olds. We've never used these relationships with young people, parents, and teachers to not only deliver services but also to listen and learn from them. So, if we understand, for example, what the Grade 11 curriculum is in the province of Alberta, and if we were to program with that in mind, well then guess what? We now have schools calling and wanting to sell out all of our student matinees. So, arts education, to me, is a huge vehicle for engaging with communities and families, and with audiences that are either unconventional or have been completely disengaged.  

Another program we have, which I love, is the TD Incubator Program. This incubator program is designed specifically for local, emerging artists who tend to blend the lines between genres and who don't want to be pigeonholed. As a result, they have not been able to break into the art world because we have pigeonholed that world. So, we bring these artists into Arts Commons, and we support them. We offer networking opportunities, we produce their work as defined by them, but we also unapologetically say to them on day one, "This is not just about us giving to you. This is about you giving to us. You are the future of the arts, and we are building this giant campus for the arts. If we just build this thing the way we've been building art centers for the past 50-60 years, we're making a huge mistake." So, this opportunity is also for you to tell us what you need out of an art center. Because, again, audiences do not consume, and artists do not create, in silos, and yet our businesses are all siloed. That makes no sense. So, that is a program by which we are, again, "providing a service" to Calgary but also unapologetically learning from the community that has been historically disengaged from our organization. One of the audiences, when we sit down and ask, "Who's not coming and why?" one of the glaring answers to that question is the disabled community.  

So, if you have mobility issues, cognitive issues, or hearing aids—literally, something as basic as the deaf or hard-of-hearing community—we have engaged with those folks. We welcome them into our building and ask, "What do you need from us in order for your experience to be valid and exciting?" Now, from a deaf and hard-of-hearing perspective, we are one of the most accessible art centers in all of North America because we have Wi-Fi-enabled, Bluetooth-enabled technology in every corner of our building. If you are an individual with a hearing aid that is Bluetooth-connected to your phone, you can now have an amplified experience in all of our theaters, in all of our lobbies, and in all of our public visual art displays. That technology, again, would never have happened if we hadn't asked the question, "Who's not coming and why?" Then we sat down with that community and asked, "How do we need to do things? What would it take for us to evolve and have you feel excited to come here?" It's not complicated, and it's not rocket science, but it requires a deep level of humility and curiosity to know that you are not always right and to understand that people other than yourself might have the answer.  

18:29 MONIQUE: I love that. It's beautifully said. I mean really thinking about what does it mean to not just consider community, but also really to program in ways that makes the Community want to come? Right. Rather than doing things the way we've always done them. But I think there lies the question of we know that there's this tension that exists, you know, between what is art. Do you balance artistic integrity? With all of these wonderful things you're hearing from the community, like this idea of I want to have community driven purpose. I want to do things that the Community will respond to. But how do you balance those things?

19:10 ALEX: So, in the book and in conversation, I normally talk about these two extremes. On the one side, we have the extreme of organizations that program in a vacuum and they program because they think it's the right thing to do, and we all know how that works out, because, let's be honest, a lot of arts organizations are still operating in that mind and struggling and failing in it. But there are also mistakes to be made when the pendulum swings too far in the other direction. And what that looks like to me is an organization that programs by committee or that gives people exactly what it is that they want. I still want to exceed expectations. I still want to surprise, delight, and challenge, but in order to do these things, in order to exceed expectations, I need to know what these expectations are. I need to know what the baseline is. And so to me, there is this really rich middle ground, this grey area, where we can learn and absorb information and then take that back and do with that something so beautiful artistically. Because I also think that excellence needs to be a part of the conversation. So how do we take something that is meaningful to somebody and program with that in mind an experience that is so heightened and so beautiful, where excellence is not even questioned? The other assumption people make is, "Oh, if it's community-driven, it must not be excellent," and to me, nothing could be farther from the truth. There are opportunities to engage people in dialogue and have the result of that dialogue be the highest form of artistry the world has ever seen.

20:56 MONIQUE: I love that, and I would agree with you. Work in community would be a proof point of that as well.

21:03 ALEX: And this is what I love, and you bringing it up makes me so excited because what I'm talking about in the arts world is not new to the world. People have been doing this. I mean, when I look at you and your work, this idea of inquiry, of walking into community with a level of empathy and humility, this is how stuff gets done. We can look to other sectors, other leaders, and other businesses that do this, and for some reason, that is just so innovative to us. I find that so sad.

21:34 MONIQUE: Well, this is the spark that creates the change, right? I think your book could create a bit of a movement if people were willing to dive in and really think about some of the strategies and models that you're sharing. You know, it's one thing to find this balancing act between creativity, artistic direction, programming, and what sells. But I think traditionally, we're so business-minded. We know that we measure success not just in the art but in many things by what revenue we generate—ticket sales, right? By how much funding we get, either from the government or donors. Given all the work and what you've talked about in your book, is there a different way for us to think about how we measure what success looks like? Is it about social impact? You talk about that a lot in your book, and if that's the case, can you enlighten us a little bit?

22:39 ALEX: Yeah, you can't see it, but I'm smiling so big right now because of your question. The reason I love that question is because it's not all or nothing. This idea that I'm either invested in social impact or I'm interested in revenue generation— we've created this false dichotomy where we can either be accessible to the community or we can run a healthy business with healthy revenue streams. And what I'm trying to convey in this book and certainly in the work that we do at Arts Commons day in and day out is that it's the impact that becomes the currency for it. It is the social impact. It is our ability and desire to connect with others that, from our perspective, if we do right by the community, if we do right by our audiences, then several things will happen. The first and most important thing is that we will become relevant again. People will appreciate what we do. They will value what we do. They will see themselves reflected in what we do, and they will see our place as a place where they are welcome and a place where they belong. That alone should be the right answer to your question. However, it gets better because if we can do that, then all of a sudden they'll buy tickets, right?

And all of a sudden, our earned revenue streams will go up. But it's not all about benefiting our business at the expense of the consumer. We want, as a nonprofit, to make sure that we are bringing down the financial barrier for participation. But impact is also the currency of philanthropy, right? And so, what I position in the book and in what we do is that without doing this kind of work, without meaningfully leaning into community, not only do we become irrelevant, but we dry up all of the revenue streams that allow us to do our work. And so, you know, I always talk about the fact there's no mission without margin. The other mistake a lot of arts organizations make—and I get in trouble when I say this sometimes—is we are very quick to assume that there is a financial barrier to participation. We are very quick to assume that a brown community or a black community doesn't have the disposable income to attend a show, and nothing could be farther from the truth. And frankly, nothing could be more offensive. But we provide these experiences that nobody wants to come to, and then instead of holding ourselves accountable, we put the blame on somebody else and say, "Oh, well, surely it's because you don't have enough money?" So now what we're doing is we're actually shooting ourselves in the foot twice—the first time because we're doing something that nobody cares for.  

And the second time, because we're actually offering it up at a discount, as opposed to offering something up that people genuinely want. Like, I think about Hamilton on Broadway. Hamilton became the hottest ticket in theater history, and then a foundation came in and said, "I want every single public school student in New York City to have seen Hamilton as part of their New York City public school education." The subsidy was valuable because people valued Hamilton to begin with.  

25:50 MONIQUE: I love that you've talked about these, like the financial barrier, and that's what is often considered. We know we talk about access, you know, access to the arts. But I know in your book, I think you've summed it all up in one way by calling them perceived barriers, if I recall correctly.

26:08 ALEX: Yeah. So I talked about three main barriers within the arts world, and I'm sure there are many, but the three that I love focusing on are: there's a geographic barrier to the arts, and I think that is interesting enough. During the pandemic, the use of technology allowed us to overcome a lot of those geographic barriers. You know, for me, the arts are special because it brings people together in a shared environment for these cohesive social experiences. Because of that, I think the geographic barrier will always exist, and we'll always have fun grappling with it. The second barrier is the financial barrier, and this one is so important, but it's often mischaracterized. And you know, the example I gave about Hamilton is a perfect example of how sometimes that barrier is either weaponized or politicized and misused. Because, to me, the biggest barrier, which is the first one I always talk about, is the perceived barrier. The perception that people might feel like they don't belong here because what we do doesn't belong to them, or who we are doesn't belong to them. And even though I joke that it's perceived, that perception can very quickly have immediate, actionable impact on our business. Because if people don't feel like they belong, then they're not going to come and they're not going to spend. And if people don't come, then what business do I have fundraising to give access to something they don't want to come to? So that perceived barrier heightens the fact that we have a role to play in improving our situation.

27:42 MONIQUE: Well, and I think that responding to that perceived barrier comes with all the things that you've already shared in making art feel like it belongs to. All of us so that we can engage with it in a meaningful way. And I think you really articulated that very well here, but you also talk about that in your book and the meaning of what that does.

28:06 ALEX: And this goes back to your first question that you were commenting on, how sometimes people get frozen when faced with having to change. The pandemic is behind us, and truths are starting to reveal themselves about how organizations and people navigated the pandemic and whether they leaned into change or not. What's fascinating to me is that this may just be my own belief, but people's fear of change doesn't come from a bad place. I think it comes from a place of fear. I think it comes from a place of not knowing what we should be changing into. What I love about this idea of social impact is that the world will tell you what they want from you. And I think what paralyzes a lot of leaders is this idea of getting it wrong. What if I come up with the wrong answer to the question? What I love about this process is that I’m saying to organizations and leaders, it’s not your job to come up with the answer. And if it’s not your job to come up with the answer, then you are not likely to get it wrong. How about we just ask the question and build in the answering of it, letting the world tell you where you're supposed to go? I think if more people understood that the process is what success looks like, it doesn't really matter what the answer is, as long as we have developed it together.  

29:29 MONIQUE: I love the idea that the process is the success. Given everything we've discussed and the need to be aware—while also acknowledging that we don't always know what we need to change for—looking ahead to the next five years, there will undoubtedly be a lot of shifts. So, how do arts organizations prepare for things they don’t know? How might we do that?

29:57 ALEX: So, we are building roughly 1,000,000 square feet of arts and cultural facilities that will be used by artists who hopefully have an entirely different creative process than the artists we've been used to for the past generation. I am very cognizant that our job is to create the environment within which people can succeed on their terms. It's about creating an environment—one that is responsibly flexible without losing its meaning. So, how do we create those spaces where people can come in with their own definitions of success, their own inquiries around challenges, and have those spaces be able to manifest those solutions and answers? People say to me, "Oh, we're worried about AI," and I say, "You shouldn't be worried about AI. If handled correctly, AI should make your admin jobs a lot easier." But the hunger—and I mention this in the book—is that as the world pushes to isolate us, the more there will be a human drive to counter that with social, collective experiences. And so, it's not a matter of fighting it. It's not a matter of denying it. I think it's a matter of recognizing it and trying to evolve our narrative so that it makes room for it and offers, you know, a healthy parallel to it or a healthy alternative to it. Yeah. I think, instead of being threatened by it, we should see it as an opportunity.  

31:34 MONIQUE: So, do you think that when we look at the future, institutions that will thrive or remain successful will do so because they have a sense of curiosity and empathy, and they're not afraid to be uncertain in their directions? Or, in your mind, what will be the things that they will be doing in order to adapt and remain relevant?

32:02 ALEX: So yes, a successful organization in the future will be the organization that can be responsive, that can be curious. However, they need to take the results of that inquiry, they need to take the results of that responsiveness, and they need to bring it back to reinforce and evolve their mission. Because here's what I worry about: if we have a bunch of organizations that all they do is try to be all things to all people, then eventually, at one point, there will be no difference between Arts Commons and the Calgary Public Library. At the end of the day, there will be no difference between a community hall in the northeast, like the Genesis Centre, which I think is stunning, and Arts Commons. I think the way we avoid falling into that trap is saying, "OK, do we become more? How do we engage in deeper dialogue?" But how do we take that learning back to our mission so that we are evolving our mission? Because at the end of the day, what separates me from Sarah Mueller at the library is that we run two different value-driven, mission-driven organizations. And I fear that by trying to become too responsive, we might actually lose sight or lose track of what our mission is to begin with, as opposed to using that information to iterate on our mission and evolve it along with the times.

33:20 MONIQUE: It is a challenging time to be a leader in the arts sector, but I really think, Alex, you've shared places where not only executives, but anyone that work in the arts sector can begin to think about how do they influence change within their organization.

33:39 ALEX: You know. I actually think it's the easiest time to be a leader. Because if your job is to listen and respond, then I can't imagine an easier time when the world is literally telling you what it is that it needs.

33:53 MONIQUE: So we need to stop and listen.

33:54 ALEX: Yeah.

33:55 MONIQUE: Alex, you know, as we wrap up, I'm curious if there is anything you would like our listeners to take away from our discussion or from your book, The Audacity of Relevance before we wrap up.

34:10 ALEX: You know, I talked earlier about creating these spaces. Those spaces mean nothing unless people make them their own. And I say this to people every day here: if we cut the ribbon on the new Arts Commons campus and people don't want to make it their own, then we have failed. And so, I tell people, whether they are artists, audiences, or activists, these spaces, as they grow, need to become yours. Organizations that have felt too foreign to you need to respond to what it is that you want. And so, I hope that people who have felt marginalized or isolated or not welcome at these places or in these spaces, I want them to know that without their agency, we mean nothing. And so, I hope that as we continue to build, and I hope as the city continues to evolve, I hope that they take that invitation seriously. And instead of feeling like, "Oh, I don't belong there," or "That doesn't belong to me," I hope that we can build a relationship, and I hope that they feel the agency to be able to look at an arts organization, wherever it is or whoever it is, and say, "I belong there," and we will measure the success of that organization by how well they respond to me. And, you know, I say this all the time: people have always asked, "What is the impact of an arts organization on the city that surrounds it?" And I think that's a very well-intentioned question, but I think it's an incomplete question because I'm far more interested in the question, "What is the impact of people on us as an organization, and will they see their impact on us?" And so I think if we are going to take on this position of humility and inquiry and responsiveness. I want to simultaneously invite people to step into that space where they can have that level of agency and influence and impact on us.

36:01 MONIQUE: Beautifully said. So now that we've talked about your book, The Audacity of Relevance, I'm sure we're going to have listeners that want to pick it up. So where can our listeners find your book? And if they want to continue to have some conversations with you, where is the best place to connect with you socially?

36:20 ALEX: So my book is available wherever books are sold.

36:23 MONIQUE: Amazing.

36:25 ALEX: On Amazon or local bookstores, if you have a good relationship and get them to order it, I am very active on social media at @AlexSarian. But also, I invite you, if you're Calgary-based or Alberta-based, to come to Arts Commons. Construction has started. I want you to feel like you are part of this. And if you're not in Calgary or not in Alberta, I invite you to connect with your local arts organization and start having these conversations, which ultimately will make your life better and more vibrant and will make their organization more successful.

36:57 MONIQUE: Outstanding. Thank you so much, Alex. Listeners, we'll put some of these details in the show notes—links to find the book, and obviously where to find Alex on our social channels. And so that's a wrap on today's episode of Responsible Disruption. Alex and I have had the opportunity to explore the crisis of relevance in the arts and this delicate balance that exists between artistic integrity and the needs of the community. What does it mean to be? Alex has helped us rethink what success looks like in the arts and how we consider social impact and what it means to have that be at the heart of our conversation. So the real question remains: How do we take action? And so, Alex has already invited you to come to Arts Commons and have these conversations. But we encourage you, if you're an artist, a leader, or someone passionate about shaping culture, we think this is an opportunity for you to embrace those bold conversations, rethink old models, be curious, and create a future where the arts can thrive in this wonderful city we have. Be sure to check out Alex's book The Audacity of Relevance. Until next time, keep disrupting responsibly.

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That's all for today's episode of Responsible Disruption. Thank you for tuning in and we hope you found the conversation valuable. If you did, don't forget to follow, rate, and share wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on future episodes and show notes, visit our website at thesocialimpactlab.com or follow us on social. And until next time, keep on designing a better world.

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