00:01 MONIQUE BLOUGH, INTRO HOST:
Welcome to today's episode of responsible Disruption. I'm your host, Monique Blough. Today we have a special takeover by Daisy Giroux who will lead our discussion on land based teaching. Daisy is Woodland Cree from the Driftpile First Nation on Treaty 8 territory and has been a visitor of treaty seven since 2011. She is the strategy lead for United Way of Calgary and areas Augusta mum Indigenous strategy. Daisy holds a Masters in social work specializing in Indigenous trauma and resiliency, and her rich background in education in leadership is truly inspiring. Joining Daisy today, we have two remarkable guys. Chantel Large is Cree from Saddle Lake, Alberta and has made Mohkinstsis her home for most of her life. With the masters in social work from the University of Calgary, Chantel is a seasonal instructor at the University of Calgary and the Cultural Services manager at Miskanawah. Known for her ability to bridge Western and traditional knowledge systems. Chantel has received numerous teaching awards and is deeply committed to a role as an elder's helper. Kirby Redwood is Saulteaux-Cree from Cowessess First Nation and has lived in Mohkinstsis for over 50 years. With extensive experience in social services, Kirby is the lead Oskâpêwis (cultural helper) at Miskanawah. He holds multiple degrees and certifications, including an MBA, and is dedicated to creating opportunities for ethical spaces that foster personal and community Wellness. In today's episode, Daisy will explore what Land based teachings mean the impact and potential of land based strategies. Examples of these teachings and the value of Indigenous parallels. Without further ado, let's dive into this enriching conversation.
02:00 DAISY GIROUX, HOST:
Oki tansi, amba’wastitch danit’ada. Bonjour. Hello. Welcome. I just want to introduce myself before we get started. I am 6, sibsibu aki which is Driftpile woman. I was gifted that by Elder Reg Crowshoe of Pikanii First Nation, his spirit name is Awakaaseena. And I'm very happy to be hosting our holding space for this podcast today with Kirby and Chantel, I am a visitor of Mohkinstsis of Treaty 7. I've been a visitor for 12 years. I'm originally from Treaty 8, Treaty 8, territory of Driftpile First Nation, and I am one of the strategy leads for Akak’stiman, which is our Indigenous strategy United Way of Calgary Area. I am a mother of four children, three living and I have two Grandbabies 2 grandsons and my background is in education. I was a teacher and principal on my reserve before moving to Mohkinstsis, and I have a Masters in social work and I'm very happy to be holding space for these two amazing speakers that we're going to be hosting today, so I will hand it and ask Kirby Redwood if he can introduce himself.
03:17 KIRBY REDWOOD, GUEST 1:
Kirby Redwood Cowessess First Nation. My Cree name is Kosinawasinapisis Rock Boy and my Blackfoot name is Augustewikita Brave Eagle, given to me by Ruth Scout Block.
03:33 CHANTEL LARGE, GUEST 2:
Hi everyone. My name is Chantel large. I'm originally from Saddle Lake Cree Nation and been a visitor here now in Mohkinstsis for most of my life. My Cree name is wapemiskinasqueel, which translates to white turtle woman.
03:49 DAISY: Thank you, Kirby and Chantel, and welcome. I also just want to acknowledge that in the spirit of our Indigenous protocols and traditions, we have lit our smudge for all of us here on this podcast, and we are going to have the smudge going as our way of honoring our truth. When we have our smudge, it is our call to order, but it is also a form of oral truthing. Everything that we're sharing on this podcast is truths. I just wanted to acknowledge and honor that. We have some questions that we're going to be asking both Kirby and Chantel. I will ask the question, Kirby, and then I'll invite you to answer the question, and then I will invite Chantel to add anything else she would like to share. Any other thoughts that I might have, I will also contribute. So the first question is, what does land-based teaching?
04:51 KIRBY: I think when I think about land-based teachings, I immediately go to Indigenous worldviews, Indigenous parallels to what we offer at Muscala and Miskanawah, and Indigenous organization. It's been on our own journey exploring our Indigenous values and Indigenous worldviews as they apply to the work that we do in the community. That goes hand in hand with land-based teachings. I'm reminded of a Cree language class that I participated in many years ago. We were doing some of the classes within the classroom and online, and the elder reminded us, they said, "You know, we eventually need to get out on the land. We need to learn some of our language out on the land because that's where our language comes from. It comes from the land, no matter who you are, no matter where you come from. On Mother Earth, your language comes from the land of your people." It was a simple teaching, but it grounded us in that reality and the value of connecting and meeting each other on the land. The land has so much to offer us in relation to our cultural teachings and our Indigenous worldviews, and the language is an example of that.
Another example would be our medicines and what it allows us to do to connect with some of our traditional medicines in healing. There are a lot of different pandemics going on in our world right now, and one of them is mental wellness. We understand that when we're connecting with each other, connecting out on the land, we're connecting with our own spirit. When we're able to connect with our own spirit and build relationships out on the land through ceremony, through fastings, through feasting, we're able to strengthen that connection with ourselves and others. Subsequently, we address our well-being mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.
The land has all of those parallels and can address them in a way that you can't in a concrete world, with four walls, desks, and computers. When we're out on the land doing teachings, learning, listening, and observing, we're able to ground ourselves. We're able to connect and, in some regards, disconnect from the Western medias that monopolize so much of our lives today. We often encourage people to leave their phones at home or in the car or shut them off when they're out on the land so they can disconnect from that part of their lives, if only for a few hours. We understand that when you can disconnect in that way and connect to the spirit of the grandfathers and grandmothers, to the spirit of mothers, to your own spirit out on the land, the impact of healing and growth is amplified. The land has many offerings and parallels, and is a critical part of how Miskanawah chooses to walk and honor our Indigenous worldviews and teachings in every aspect of how we exist and serve the children and families in Mohkintsis.
09:04 DAISY: And to heart to you, Kirby. Chantel, do you have anything else that you wanted to add to that question?
09:08 CHANTEL: Yeah, I think that I would just echo a lot of what Herbie had said. When I think about what land-based teachings mean to me and to the work that we do here at Miskanawah, I think that land-based teachings are anything and everything that helps us connect to our spirit and connect to our relatives—outside of only our human relatives, but also anything that helps us connect to animals, nature, medicines, plants, the environment around us, and even our elders. Our elders are so integral to our land-based teachings, and they are the ones from whom many of those teachings come. When I think about our land base and some of the work that we do out there, I think about many stories that I've heard people tell about the impact it has on them to be able to get outside of the city and get away from a lot of the noise. They can just be present with themselves and with others, and connect in a different way. I often hear our elders talk about how the land reminds them of being at home, their childhood, or a different time for them. Often, those memories they share are very happy ones—memories that help them feel a sense of belonging, even when they're away from their home fires or the places where they grew up. It's something familiar to them that helps with their identity and connection.
10:59 DAISY: And to heart, to you, Chantel. Thank you so much for sharing that. I don't have anything else to add from an Indigenous perspective, but from a Western perspective, I would just add that when you think about yourself, those of you that are listening to you, back to your childhood, when you would, you know, go on to the land, whether it's through a school based program or when you go camping with your family or your friends, how grounding that was for you and how at peace you felt, you know, just listening to the rivers, the sounds of the river, the trees, the rain, even when you're out in your tent, you know things like that. How different that feels compared to when you're in your home. And I think that, you know, is part of, you know, what's the benefit and what's the importance of learning from the land and being on the land in a good way. So the next question that I'll hand to Kirby is in your experience, what is the impact or potential impact the land based strategy and or offerings has on those we serve?
12:01 KIRBY: You know, that's a complex question because the potential impact that a land-based strategy has on the organization and the children and families we serve is personal on many levels. It's going to impact people in different ways. But what it does allow us to do as an organization is to create trust and safety with our families in a more natural setting, in a more natural environment. Sometimes being out on the land and in ceremony is a first-time experience for many people, especially Indigenous people who grew up in the city. Going out on the land can be a new experience. What they tell us in the oral truthing and validation ceremonies is that the impact of being out on the land and in ceremony has allowed them to acknowledge their own trauma and their stage of healing. It helps them understand their connectedness to self, to the spirit of self, and to their relatives. This happens for them out on the land and in these ceremonies, whether it's a sweat lodge, a circle, a cultural camp, a family camp, or a youth camp.
You know, just a gathering. You know, being out on the land allows us to let go of some of those stressors that people experience within the city and to just connect with self and others around them and the families. The individuals tell us that it's been transformational in many regards. It's been validating and relieving; it's allowed them to identify some of those missing pieces that have been absent in their lives for so long, and a lot of it is based on relations. You know, building relatives. And so we heard over and over again in our truthing ceremonies that the land has opened doorways, has opened understandings of self. It has addressed some of those barriers that people encounter every single day, and they have come to understand them in a different way. And so the land and the ceremony allow them to navigate those personal challenges in a healthier way. We know the impact it has because our families have been telling us the value and the impact that land-based teachings and just gatherings have for them and their families. And so it's become a constant within Miskanawah here in regards to whenever we're offering or creating new programs or services. It's like, OK, how are we utilizing the land? How is the land?
Leading some of those developments, you know, and when I say land, I'm being all-encompassing in regards to an Indigenous strategy and Indigenous worldview. When I talk about land-based teachings, that's the lens I'm coming from, you know, and utilizing the different perspectives. It doesn't matter who you are or where you come from. There are many commonalities, but there are also some distinctions that we want to focus on, and that's why the diversity of elders and representation of cultures is critical.
16:00 DAISY: And to heart to you, Kirby. Thank you. Chantel, do you have anything that you wanted to add for that question?
16:06 CHANTEL: Yeah, I think when I was listening to Kirby talk, one of the things I thought about is how we all know the importance of connecting to land in some way, shape, or form. We know how valuable that is to healing and resiliency. We have many stories that we could share on behalf of all the families who come into contact with Miskanawah. We know the importance of that, but it just kind of occurred to me when I was listening to Kirby talk that there's also a certain privilege in that too. Land-based healing and land-based offerings and opportunities are not accessible to everyone, right? And it was even one of our worries in our early days—how are we going to even get families out there? Transportation is a barrier and things like that. So, I think one of the things we strive to do at Miskanawah is help people have those opportunities who wouldn't otherwise have them, to connect with their communities and teachers from their own communities. When I first came to Miskanawah in 2018, I remember Kirby sharing a vision or a hope for Miskanawah in which every person who came here to access supports or healing could be connected with an elder from their community, who could share their teachings. It was such a profound thought, and it shouldn't have been something so profound, but for me, it felt profound. It should be normalized, but it felt profound because in all of these other areas I was engaging with, if they had an elder that was considered good, that was considered good enough.
And I remember when I heard Kirby talk about that, I thought about young people who are growing up so disconnected, often not by choice. I often share the story about how we had to move away from my community because my mom was sick. She was diagnosed with lupus, and there was no access to the medical care she needed in our community. So, we moved away, and we were displaced. But it wasn’t our choice to have to move away from the community. Now that I’m older and I have kids in this area, this will always be my home. I think about those young people and families who have to move away to find work and opportunities and how they don’t get the same opportunity to connect with the elders in their community. It's often hard, even for myself, to travel home because it's expensive, and traveling gets costly. So, I was thinking about the impact of being able to offer that to families who wouldn’t otherwise have the opportunity to connect with elders, land, or even find a place to pick medicines. Even just getting out of the city to do that is a barrier for some people. I think that speaks to a bit of the impact we have and hope to continue to have in community with land-based teachings.
19:58 DAISY: And to heart, to you, Chantel, thank you so much. What I would say, too, is that we are addressing some of the root causes of intergenerational trauma, especially through the work that we do with our Dutchman and Medusa initiatives with our agencies. Having opportunities like this for people to get back onto the land, be one with the land, and recognize the importance of the land is a form of healing. It’s a way of learning more about their culture. A lot of our youth and families in the city, as both Kirby and Chantel have said, don’t have access to that as readily as people living in their community nations. So, things like this being offered by an urban Indigenous organization are huge because we don’t have the kind of access to help contribute to breaking the cycle of intergenerational trauma. Also, when I think about the teachings that exist on the land, the medicines and ceremonies that come from the land, and the kind of relationship we have with the land, a lot of that knowledge and those stories are being lost when we lose our elders.
So, having opportunities like this for our young people will definitely impact the revitalization and sustainability of that knowledge, knowing what the medicines are, how to use them properly, and how to respect the land. This will help continue the legacy that the elders have given to us and continue to give to us while they’re still around. I think these are incredible impacts that an organization like Miskanawah is providing for our families and our community. Okay, so question #3: Kirby, what are some examples of land-based teachings that you guys are doing at Miskanawah?
22:06 KIRBY: You know, that question can go in so many different directions depending on which elder I might be thinking of, because all of the elders that come out there offer something specific to their nation. Some of the land-based teachings that are really valuable and understood through parallels would be, for instance, addressing mental well-being. A lot of people are familiar with Western practices around clinicians and therapists and one-on-one consultations. The parallel to that would be connecting with an elder—in ceremony or through smudging—as a form of healing. Both approaches are valued, and many families utilize both. Some of the land-based teachings that take place, as referenced in the comments we've made, include language, medicine, and the spiritual connection to what land-based teachings have to offer.
You know, and again, that spiritual connection often begins with self and then extends to the grandfathers and grandmothers, to Mother Earth, then to each other and to the land itself, to Mother Earth. Some other land-based teachings are facilitated through various ceremonies. There are so many different ceremonies that take place out there; I can't even name them all because some ceremonies just happen naturally. They happen in a way that people make offerings, and then next thing you know, they're in a ceremony with an elder, whether it's one-on-one or through a sweat lodge or teachings or, you know, the cultural camps, the language, the medicines. Medicine harvesting is a ceremony in itself, and not only are you learning about the medicines and what they have to offer in regards to physical well-being.
But the process of harvesting medicines has an impact on one's spiritual well-being as well, and when you're harvesting medicines, you're laying down that tobacco, acknowledging Mother Earth and the beautiful gifts that she gives us each and every day. Just that process is a land-based teaching that benefits the physical mind, the spiritual mind. The cultural camps that we have out there have just grown, and we never have enough capacity to address the need. It just speaks to this growing desire and acknowledgment of the value. If you click on the various medias, you hear people talking about this practice of grounding and how you need to be connected to the earth. It’s not new. We’ve been doing that for millennia, and many cultures have been doing that for millennia. It’s just that people have been caught up in this futuristic world, this media world, and sometimes we forget those things that are equally important, like connecting to spirit. That’s what the land allows us to do in a more natural way, in a way that people understand, and it doesn’t matter what culture you come from around the world. There are land-based teachings, land-based healings, and the more we can connect to that, the better off we’re all going to be.
26:24 DAISY: And to heart to Kirby, Chantel.
26:27 CHANTEL: Yeah, I don't—I think Kirby summed it up pretty well. I don't know if I have anything else to add in terms of our land-based offerings across Miskanawah, just that, like Kirby said, there are many things that we do all throughout the year and even beyond, working with our families. But we think about, "How are we going to get our staff connected out there? How are we going to do things a little differently?" It’s about not everything feeling like it has to happen in a boardroom or within these brick walls. It’s how do we get all of our staff and our families connected to a different way of doing things, and how do we prioritize that, really? We talk a lot about Indigenous parallels, which I think is really important. But for me, I always remind myself when thinking about Indigenous parallels is how do we prioritize Indigenous parallels? How do we prioritize land-based healing and teachings? To Kirby's point, it really does always feel like we never have enough capacity because what we've learned is that people are so disconnected and they're so longing for this connection that when they learn that this is an offering, it...
It's just so busy. Yeah, I always say, "That’s my cultural team." Anytime I have an update about them, I just say, "Oh, they're just so busy." This work is so important to us, to myself, and to each and every person on my team. We always want to do more. We always want to offer more, and we want to make sure that anyone who wants access can have access. But it's a lot. It's a lot of work. It's not always easy, but the need is so high, the demand is so high.
28:37 DAISY: And to heart, Chantel and I want to thank both of you and Miskanawah for holding space for us at United Way because we were able to benefit from some of the land based experiences by being able to take our some of our staff through as an experience for those that were ready to participate in a sweat, and we offered that a couple of times and it's completely changed a lot of their lives that were part of it. And in fact, we had a staff member that was quite nervous about going into a sweat because she didn't know what to expect. She didn't ask any questions and then, you know, in all fairness, we never asked questions. If they had questions either. And so now that's a practice that we follow just to kind of orientate people that are going to participate in a sweat. But she has become one of our biggest advocates to our other staff that want to participate in this but have not have not done it yet. And how much respect and passion that she shares about the experience that she witnessed and just being able to be part of the land and to have something like that as a way to kind of recharge her spirit, but also kind of make the disconnect from the Western the business corporate world, the nonprofit world. But we had an opportunity to bring our agencies, our Western organizations, to come together to meet with the elders and have a conversation with the elders on the land. So, you know, there were a couple of opportunities that were very grateful to have Miskawnawah help us to, to have us on the land and experience that. So I just want to extend my utmost gratitude for that and continue to benefit from these experiences that are being offered. Is there anything that you wanted to share for people that are listening of anything that's upcoming that is going to be taking place on the land as part of any experiences that Miskanawah is going to be hosting in the future?
30:53 KIRBY: Well, one of the things I'll add is that, you know, there was a time when Miskanawah was at a stage of growth and understanding about Indigenous parallels and leading with culture, where we would have sweat lodges and there would just be a couple of us there. We'd do it 2-3 or 4 times a year. And today, we're at a stage of offering those sweat lodge ceremonies to families and the community weekly. Sometimes we’re having sweat lodges 2-3 times a week. That speaks to the demand, the need, and the people yearning for that connection, that understanding, to spirit, to culture. When I think about offerings, at the heart, that's one of them: the sweat lodge happening every week. To Chantel's point, now there's an Anishinaabe lodge out on our land being hosted by Darrell Brass Jr. We’re moving closer and closer to creating a space where it doesn’t matter where you come from, Ontario or elsewhere; you’re going to find some connection there. And that’s under the guidance of our elders.
And so with that, you know, we do have our summer camps that are often taking place. This year is going to be an exception because we’re going to spend the summer building and shoring up our land-based infrastructure so that we can accommodate some of the growing needs and demands. But we’ve got some community functions taking place even in a few weeks out on the land. And again, capacity is a challenge. We can’t say yes to everybody, and we’re already at capacity for that land-based offering. If you can envision multiple teepees with Blackfoot, Stoney, Métis, Anishinaabe, and Cree elders, and you get to go and sit with Blackfoot elders in the morning and Stoney elders in the afternoon, or you can go to an Anishinaabe sweat lodge or a Cree sweat lodge, that’s one of our functions we’re offering on May 30th. I think we’re probably at capacity already in that regard, but it’s an example of some of the offerings. It’s an example of need and demand, and no matter what we do, it never seems to be enough. People want more. So, Chantel, do you have anything to add?
33:42 CHANTEL: Yeah, I think the only other event that’s top of mind for me that will be here before we know it is an event we’re trying to put together for the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation on September 30th. What we noticed as an organization and people doing this work is that our elders are really called to do a lot of teaching, education, and awareness on or around September 30th. It takes a lot out of them to share their stories and open up. Last year, I wanted to do something a little different. We wanted to create an event out at the land where elders could come and decompress or debrief after being asked to share all of these stories. So, we created a four-day sacred fire ceremony in which we welcomed the elders, gifted them, and feasted with them. We provided all sorts of activities, entertainment, and ceremonial offerings so they could come for their own healing. We were very surprised. To Kirby’s point, we’re trying to create a little bit more capacity and infrastructure out there because what we found at that event was once the elders came out to the land, they didn’t want to leave. We had elders sleeping in teepees, and it was the end of September. I was so worried about that.
Like, you guys are going to be cold. They were like, "No, we don’t want to go." So, we had elders sleeping in teepees and in their cars. What we’re trying to plan for this year is how do we host our elders again and take care of them in an even better way than we were able to do last year. So, that’s just a couple of examples of some of our larger events and activities that we have going on at the land. But we have staff out there every day. We have a team out there every day, and we’re always hosting people for a variety of different activities, events, healing, and ceremonies.
35:54 KIRBY: I’ve got a funny story to share about that. One of the elders was saying to me— I showed up the day after, and he said, "I was just freezing last night. You guys should have more blankets here for us." He said, "I laid beside the fire and I was still cold." I asked, "You laid right there?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, there’s a buffalo hide right behind you." He replied, "Oh, I didn’t see that." It’s an example of desire and need, and you know, when the elders are taxed all year round with people leaning on them for their guidance and expertise in relation to language and ceremony. So, for those four days, we can just take care of them. They just loved it. You could tell they appreciated being taken care of.
And that’s the role of a scapulas. When I think about Indigenous parallels, our last question here is, you know, that’s one of them. The Westerners call me a CEO, but the Indigenous perspective on that is scapulas—a helper of elders, a helper of ceremonies.
And when we look at our offerings, our service delivery offerings, and our program offerings, we acknowledge that they are there for a purpose: to serve families, to support them during life challenges, crises, or just healing and growing. We recognize that no matter what kind of offering or ceremony we’re involved in with families, that service delivery, that practice, is a ceremony in itself. So, practice as ceremony is a perspective that we embrace. It’s an Indigenous parallel. People say that they are service providers, and we say, "Yes, we’re service providers," but the Indigenous parallel is that it’s a ceremony. When you’re addressing somebody’s well-being, building relationships, or addressing healing or trauma, it’s a ceremony. It doesn’t matter how you’re engaging them, whether it’s in an office or out on the land; it’s still a ceremony. And so it’s an Indigenous parallel, just as the role of scapulas and the altar.
You know, how we capture our impact, how we utilize our language and our cultural teachings to communicate it and advocate for some change, is one of the ways we lead and advocate for change. We do this by modeling it and by inviting others to sit and witness it. Our truthing ceremonies do that; our oral truthing ceremonies and our tea dance ceremonies are parallels to community consultation and community engagement. We all, as charities, need to do an annual report. At Miskanawah, we do an annual truthing ceremony where people can come and listen to and hear directly from our families about the impact we’ve had on them as an organization. It’s also an opportunity for Miskanawah to share orally what we did and learned this past year. When we do that, we’re not just doing it for the people who show up physically but in front of Creator in ceremony. We’re honoring the teachings and the opportunity to be a scapulas and share that in ceremony. We’re putting ourselves forth with Creator and saying, “This is what we did,” and trying to be accountable to the spirit of the grandfathers and grandmothers, which is something that is hard to explain. But it's something that we do just naturally, and it holds you accountable as an individual on a level that far exceeds any contractual obligation you have with a funder. That’s an Indigenous parallel. For us, it’s like the ultimate challenge and accountability when you’re doing it in ceremony, when you’re doing it with pipe. So, you know, that speaks to some of the parallels. Chantel, could you share some other parallels?
41:03 CHANTEL: You know, a couple of stories are coming to mind for me when I hear Kirby speak. One of them is when we recently, well, I shouldn’t say we recently completed; we’re currently working on our strategic plan for the next four years at Miskanawah. We did that in ceremony. We held a tea dance ceremony with elders, community members, board members, leadership, and all sorts of people. Everyone in that ceremony had an opportunity to provide input on their ideas of what Miskanawah should focus on in the coming years. We’re now putting that all into our document, which will become our strategic plan for the next four years.I had a bit of an aha moment during that ceremony because I realized that I actually didn’t know what the Western parallel was to creating a strategic plan since I’ve never done it any other way. It was a really special moment for me because it showed the prioritization of Indigenous parallels. I feel really blessed to learn things in this way.
I feel really blessed that this is the only way that I know how to do things. So that was one story that was coming to mind for me. The other thing that I'm thinking about a lot as I’m listening to everyone talk and share today is that I was really fortunate to grow up with parents who were connected to ceremony. My mom would say that we’re not ceremonial people, that we’re not traditional people. But I was really fortunate to see my parents engaged in ceremony. This is the part that comes back to it almost being a privilege. It’s not something that's accessible or attainable for everyone. I saw a lot of different things when I was growing up in ceremony. One of the main things I learned was the act of reciprocity. When you’re asking for something or praying for something, you’re always giving something in return. I saw my parents, even suffering through sundancer when they were going through hard times, and I witnessed the sacrifices they made for themselves and their families.
And then I saw the other side. When they came out of it, all of these things they had hoped for and prayed for started coming to fruition. I witnessed many miracles in my life and have many stories to share. I grew up learning through observation that nothing is impossible, as long as we do things in a good way. Miracles happen around us every day. But that’s a privilege not everyone gets to experience.
I’ve shared this a few times across Miskanawah when I’m working with different people. Sometimes I feel like I have a key or a map, and I want to tell people, “Just come. Join me, and we can do this.” Life doesn’t have to be hard or heavy. I invite people to come sit with me, prepare offerings, and envision a different life—a life they want. What we do in our land-based teachings is show people how to do that when they haven’t had that kind of connection. It doesn’t always work exactly how we want it to. People have to go on their own journeys and learn their own lessons. It’s not something I can just tell people.
You can’t tell them; it’s something that you have to experience. That’s one of the important aspects of land-based teachings. We can talk about all the benefits and healing, but it has to be experiential. Like Kirby was saying, sitting in virtual classrooms isn’t the same. You have to experience it, feel it, and then it will change. We see that all the time—something shifts in people when they reconnect with parts of themselves they’ve been disconnected from for a long time.
46:17 KIRBY: Yeah, you see, some people really make shifts when they’re gifted their spirit name. I think that’s one of the ceremonies that we see have such an impact on individuals, allowing them to connect in that way. And so the gifting of spirit names and I think the parallel to many of our offerings is that the typical Western way of providing services or programs is the delivery of those services and how they’re offered. Often, they follow a roadmap that’s been created in regards to starting here at A and finishing over here at B—very Western, right? Sometimes a little too prescriptive, a little too paternalistic. And what Chantel was talking about was Miskanawah, so as you know, Cree for “come discover for yourself.” And so Miskanawah’s programs, our offerings, anything that we invite families to be a part of, is just that: it’s an invitation and it’s an offer.
We invite them to come and join us in their own time, in their own way, and we meet them where they’re at. And I think that’s the goal. If we do that while lighting this smudge, then we’re honoring our cultural mandate of protecting this smudge. And so, my journey was a little different than Rent House’s. I came off the reserve when I was six years old, into the city, and grew up in the city, completely disconnected from my culture. When I reflect back on that and think of what the highlights were for me in relation to cultural connection, back then it was the Indian Friendship Center situated in downtown Chinatown. That was my highlight. I remember connecting with one of their programs and going to their cultural camps with Rufus Goodstrike. Those are highlights.
You know, there, there, you know, it was, you know, a little rez kid growing up in the city. There's a tremendous amount of isolation and racism that I was dealing with that still exists today. But I think today, you know, there's more. There's more Indian Friendship Center opportunities. There's more organizations that are like Miskanawah that are there to support people in managing and navigating that. And that's a very significant way of leading with Indigenous worldviews and cultural offerings for families. I think it's pretty significant, and protecting this smudge is a priority for Miskanawah, and it's an honor to be, you know, with Oskapios.
49:29 DAISY: Hand to heart, to both of you, Kirby and Chantel, and thank you for sharing the value of Indigenous parallels. I just wanted to also add that one of the stories that Elder Ridge Croshaw often shares with us when he talks about the value of Indigenous parallels is: if you can imagine IBM and Mac trying to talk to each other and how challenging that is, and if there could be a system put in place where they are compatible or they can talk to each other, that's very similar to the value of Indigenous parallels. It's a way for us to be able to talk to each other and understand each other so we can coexist through that ethical space. But it's also inviting our Indigenous people to feel that they belong somewhere. So when they are seeing these Indigenous parallels, like the smudge or coming in a circle or being on the land, they’re seeing themselves in that experience. So it's providing the value of those opportunities for healing, but it's also providing an understanding and teaching to non-Indigenous people to really understand the beauty of these teachings and ceremonies that we are very fortunate to have.
So, thank you so much to both Kirby and Chantel for being here with us for today's podcast. I just wanted to quickly invite if you wanted to share any last words before we close. And I'll ask you, Kirby, if you wanted to say anything that you wanted to add or just any last comments.
51:05 KIRBY: Yeah, I think final comments in regards to Indigenous worldviews and Indigenous parallels are just echoing what Daisy said around the value of both. The elders remind us it's not about blending the two worldviews, the Western worldview and the Indigenous worldview. It's about acknowledging them both. They're both equal, they're both important, and it is about creating that ethical space with the hopes of moving forward. I think that's something that we've really grown into. There was a time when we were trying to infuse Indigenous parallels into how we lead and walk this world as an Indigenous organization. Now we find ourselves at a point where we're wondering how to invite Western worldviews into some of our practices and our offerings. That's a good place to be. It feels good. It feels like we're on the right track, and it's because we like to smudge every single day. So, that's something we continue to strive for as an organization and focus on how we build relationships with our non-Indigenous brothers and sisters so that when newcomers come into the city, they get to hear about Canada's First Peoples, Canada's Indigenous peoples, and they get to hear about us from us. That's something that's important for us as well.
52:44 DAISY: Any last comments or thoughts, Chantel?
52:49 CHANTEL: No, I think the only other thing that's coming up for me when I'm thinking about the importance of this work is our young people, especially. It's probably Kirby's childhood story that's reminding me of this, but I think about the importance of belonging, identity, and connection for our young people. We see them in many different programs that we offer here at Miskanawah. One of our programs works with youth who are gang-involved, and what we do is teach them to be ceremonial helpers, to be elders' helpers. What they find is a connection that they were seeking in the wrong places. When they come and connect to their identity, I remember being a young person growing up, and I'm very fair. I'm the only fair person in my family.
I remember having a lot of shame for being Indigenous. I carried a lot of shame because of the way I heard people talk about Indigenous people. It wasn't until I got older that I saw there are many, many people who didn’t fit these stereotypes I was hearing about in society. That’s when I started to feel really proud. What we're showing these young people is that there’s a lot to be proud of in their culture. There’s a lot of resiliency and beauty, and they belong here. We’re trying to create a space where they know they belong, a safe space for them to go where they see themselves represented. We often, as Indigenous people, don’t see ourselves represented in society. We don’t see ourselves represented on TV and in the media, unless it’s in a negative light. So, we’re just trying to create a space where young people see themselves and can be proud of who they are and where they come from.
55:13 DAISY: Very beautifully, said Chantel. Heart to you and to heart to you too, Kirby. And thank you both for joining today and for sharing your wisdom and to continue to do the amazing work that you guys do at Miskanawah as a Oskapios. And thank you so much for being here with us.
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55:38 MONIQUE: That's all for today's episode of Responsible Disruption. Thank you for tuning in and we hope you found the conversation valuable. If you did, don't forget to follow, rate, and share wherever you get your podcasts. To stay up to date on future episodes and show notes, visit our website at thesocialimpactlab.com or follow us on social and until next time, keep on designing a better world.
